You all know what the glass ceiling is, right? But what about the cotton ceiling – and are cis lesbians and straight men who don’t find transwomen sexually attractive therefore transphobic? Here are my thoughts.
The dating game is a bit of an eye-opener when you’re a transwoman (or at least, in my case, a transwoman in waiting).
I’ve joined a few dating sites and apps in the past few weeks. I’ll write more about my experiences in another post, but it’s fair to say that I’ve had a lot more success with my trans lesbian dating profile than I did years ago when I had a regular straight guy one.
But what about this so-called cotton ceiling? Well, the “cotton” refers to the fabric of knickers – I assume the gusset. Think of it as a barrier. Wikipedia says:
Cotton ceiling is the situation of trans women or trans men of being excluded from female and gay spaces — specifically within the dating scene, but also society in general.
I think it’s more widely accepted that the cotton ceiling refers to trans lesbians being shunned by cis lesbians when it comes to sex. “Thou shalt not pass.”
Do a Google image search for the cotton ceiling and, as well as some lovely cotton-covered lampshades, you’ll see that the TERFs have been busy with their bile and their meme generators.
Here are a few examples.
Yes, because all males (transwomen included, natch) are completely homophobic towards lesbians and think they need a good dose of Christian conversion therapy right away. But transphobia? Oh yeah, that’s fair game!
What absolute twaddle. Then there’s this:
As usual, it becomes clear that the TERFs’ “we need to talk” mantra actually means “we hate trans people and hope they all die a slow and painful death, because anyone with a penis – whether a cis man or a transwoman – is naturally a rapist in waiting.
I keep coming back to my argument that TERFs must have had a terrible experience with an abusive man. And while I’d never defend abuse from anyone, that’s no excuse to start abusing other people online, like teenage keyboard warriors.
Hey ho, haters gonna hate. Then we have this one, which is a bit more tricky.
And I suppose that really depends on whether you see trans women as women or not. Naturally, TERFs don’t – all trans women are just playing dress-up as part of their “autogynephilia fetish”.
But while they’re still living in the Dark Ages, this is 2018 and most people in civilised Western societies accept that trans women are indeed women.
So if a transwoman is a woman and fancies other women, that makes her a lesbian, regardless of what’s between her legs – doesn’t it? It’s just that she’s a trans lesbian rather than a cis one.
“Transwomen demand sex from lesbians!” writes one TERF online (I won’t post a link – Google it if you want to). No. Nobody trans is demanding sex with lesbians any more than anyone cis.
What the TERFs can’t understand is that sexuality, like gender, is on a spectrum. So some people fancy men, some fancy women. Some fancy trans people, too. Some fancy non-binary people. Some fancy everyone. Some fancy no-one.
It’s not a case of being gay or straight anymore. Even bisexual is becoming an outdated term. People are becoming more liberated and realising that it’s OK to fancy who the f*ck they like. Hence terms like pansexual, polysexual, sapiosexual and sexually openminded.
Which brings me to my final point. If a cis lesbian isn’t sexually attracted to a trans lesbian purely because she’s transgender, does that make the cis lesbian transphobic?
This is a point that can be debated long and hard but I asked the question on Twitter and didn’t get a single reply.
My personal view is that no, it doesn’t – it’s just that some people have a certain preference over which genitalia they’d prefer to play with on their partner.
Same goes for straight guys. One transgender activists writes that “straight men should work through non-attraction to transgender women”.
So are cis lebsians and straight cis men being transphobic just because they don’t fancy transgender women – let’s be honest, just because they’d rather their partner had a vagina they were born with rather than a cock, or a vagina created through surgery?
Not in my book. It’s not really that different to someone who doesn’t want to have sex with a pensioner or an obese person. Does that make them ageist or “fattist”? No, it’s just that different things float different people’s boats.
If a “gentleman prefers blondes”, it doesn’t automatically make him a hater of brunettes and redheads. No.
For me personally, I like to smooch with women, whether they’re transwomen or cis women. I couldn’t give a monkey’s what’s between their legs so long as I fancy them.
I don’t generally fancy butch cis lesbians, but that doesn’t make me homophobic towards them just because there’s no sexual attraction.
It’s just that different people like different things. And there are plenty of people out there – including cis women and cis men – who adore transwomen.
Because of that, I quite like being a special snowflake! But I fully appreciate that I’m not going to be everyone’s cup of tea.
I would love to hear your thoughts in comments below.
Andie xxx
Asher says
Thanks for your thoughtful approach to this question. I’ve seen the “not being attracted to transfolk = transphobia” argument crop up as well, and I’m very much in your camp.
Growing up as a an intersex gay boy, I always figured that there would any number of guys for whom I wasn’t the ideal cup of tea, because some gay guys can be really particular about the size and shape of *ahem* certain things, and I always assumed that was very much like, for example, not being into cheesecake (I mean, literal cheesecake: as one of the apparently very few people alive who don’t like cheesecake, this is my go-to analogy). As for me, I’m basically not into guys who look too much like me overall (though I could care less what’s in their pants). I’m pretty sure I’m not me-phobic (most of the time, anyway :P); I just happen to have a strong preference for contrast.
This isn’t to say that I don’t there are some people who aren’t into transfolk as a function of transphobia–I’m sure they exist. I just don’t think it’s quite as cut and dried as all that a lot of the time.
Meanwhile, I’ve known a handful of lesbians who were perfectly happy with dicks as long they weren’t attached to men … and I guess you could say that I generally like men, regardless of whether they’re attached to dicks (unless they look too much like me), come to think of it. I like to think that both fit neatly under the “it takes all kinds” clause.
Andie Pas de Deux says
Thanks, Asher. I’m expecting that quite a few trans folk will disagree with you and I on this matter, but we shall see! Much love to you, hun. xxx
Madison says
I agree with your perspective on this. In fact I cringe somewhat when I hear or read the accusation of transphobia hurled at someone for not fancying a trans person.
We cannot expect the right to live our lives without prejudice if we cannot afford the same liberties to others.
Andie Pas de Deux says
Agreed. It’s like that whole thing about pussy hats being transphobic (just because some trans women don’t have female genitalia). Bullshit – those hats are not transphobic and I’d happily wear one in a women’s march.. I just think that, sometimes, people take things like this too far.
Nat says
Hey Hun,
An interesting read…enjoyed as well as having to look up and learn new language. I sure do live in a bubble!
Wish everyone could just ‘live and let live’. Why are some people so full of hate and nastiness? Why do some people think that they are better than others for whatever reason?
My adopted motto: ‘Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle’ Plato
Love you x
Andie Pas de Deux says
I love you, too, Natalie! But you already know that!
As for hate and nastiness, I think it’s mainly down to ignorance. Some people are scared about what they don’t understand.
I reckon a fair percentage of the people I came out to as trans must have thought that trans people were all weirdos beforehand. But then they ask questions and realise I’ve not got two heads and am a pretty nice person – and bingo! Education and perceptions changed, just like that!
I’ll probably never forgive myself for coming out to a TERF, though. What a mistakea to makea!
LOVE YOU! And love the Plato quote, too. You once told me that people all start off as stones and that a whole lot of effort is needed to release the diamond inside. I’ve never forgot that – and I’m so nearly there. I’m gonna be carbon-tastic! Love you so much, my beautiful friend. xxx
Mandy says
Wow – this is the most sensible blog I have seen. I looked you up as I had noticed you had blocked me even though I have never interacted with you – I am one of the folk who terfblocker have on their radar.
But back to your blog – I am not anti trans. I have helped trans friends get their GRC by writing letters and I have gone with them to appointments, held hands, provided tissues. My main concern has been the acrtivists who have been very vocal about lesbians being transphobic if they don’t accept trans women as sexual partners. My beautiful (inside and out but I am biased) daughter is a lesbian and my mamma bear comes out and I would go for anyone who made her feel uncomfortable in her own sexuality ( hey we all need a Mum like me)
So I would like to say hello Andie and thank you – I would be proud to call you my daughter x
Andie Pas de Deux says
Hi Mandy, thanks for this. What is your Twitter account? I’ll unblock you. Might be worth having a word with TERFblocker to see if you can get unblocked if you were blocked by mistake. xxx
Rud says
Female homosexuals are not attracted to biological males. This is what female homosexuality is and means. Calling us TERFs for that is hate speech and against the law. Also, for some 5 years now Ive been dealing with transwomen that demand lesbians sleep with them. You calling us TERF and not respecting our homosexuality is discrimination of lesbians at its very core. and its hate speech and against he law.
Andie Pas de Deux says
TERF stands for trans-exclusionary (so-called) feminist. It’s just an acronym and an accurate one, although I’d argue people like you aren’t true feminists.
If you don’t like being called a TERF, don’t be one. And TERFs should know all about hate speech – but using a simple acronym certainly doesn’t meet the criteria, sorry.
And I completely respect your homosexuality – you should try the same with people who are trans. But you won’t, will you?
Rud says
Calling lesbians that protest the rapey attack on us by transwomen TERFs is hate speech by definition and against he law. We have the right to be attracted to females and not to transwomen. There are 10.000’s of examples of transwomen telling lesbians we are transphobic for being attracted to the female sex, our same sex only. This is again, against the law as it is severe discrimination of lesbians. Its what L And G movement fought against and fights against. Now transwomen and transmen do it. It’s still as discriminatory as when non trans people do this to us.
Andie Pas de Deux says
Rud, did you actually bother to read beyond the title?! Because if you had, you’d see that I agree – I think it’s fine if cis lesbians don’t fancy transwomen. I also think it’s fine if they do. And like it or not, there are plenty of cis lesbians who DO find transwomen sexually attractive.
We’re not going to agree on the TERF thing. It seems that it’s fine for TERFs to incorrectly call transwomen paedophiles, festishists, homophobes, sex attackers and mysognyists – and yet when they use a simple acronym in return, they get “offended”. Well, boo hoo.
Rud says
The point is this: lesbians are attracted to the female sex only. So transwomen, who are biologically male, arent part of that. That is not Terf. That is what female homosexuality is. It also is not fluid.
Lesbians arent attracted to bio males with and without a penis.
You attack female homosexuality itself. Which is hate speech. Lesbians and gays are a protected group in law for this reason, and other reasons. Educate yourself on homosexuality. You dont understand what it actually is and means. Many transwomen dont. Transwomen that dont date other transwomen but hound lesbians. We see you. And this needs to stop. Create an orientation based on same gender/identity for trans people and people attracted to you, so we can end this horrific attack on lesbians.
Andie Pas de Deux says
But SOME cis lesbians are attracted to transwomen. I’m very sorry if you don’t want to believe this, but it’s a fact. You clearly don’t accept that transwomen are women. But such is the way of the TERF.
And how exactly am I attacking homosexuality?! Don’t be ridiculous. I’ll leave the bigotry to you and your TERF mates.
As I said in my original post, which you’ve clearly not read, people should be allowed to fancy who the hell they like. If a cis lesbian only wants to date other cis lesbians, that’s absolutely fine with me.
Please don’t put words in my mouth.
Rud says
Cis lesbians dont exist, as it supposes lesbians are potentially bisexual. We are not attracted to members of the opposite sex, so not to transwomen. Calling us TERF for being same sex attracted only, which is a protected right, is hate speech and sicrimination of lesbians. I see how you try to manipulate people with your double message and mainly lesbians suffer from these attacks on our sexuality by transwomen. Its why its discrimination of us. Where I live, your sort of speech about and to lesbians is not accepted.
Andie Pas de Deux says
Cis lesbians do exist. Sorry.
And I call TERFs TERFs because they’re trans-exclusionary bigots, not because some are lesbians. Seriously, get with the programme.
Double message? What? I think lesbians are fantastic and should have sex with who they want. I’m not sure how you’re reading hatred into that.
Rud says
All sexualities are by definition exclusive. It would be fair if you’d call all people that exclude transwomen, TERF. But you dont. You only attack an a already marginalized group: lesbians.
Andie Pas de Deux says
That’s simply not true! I do call anyone who’s trans-exclusionary a TERF. It has nothing to do with sexuality or even gender. Straight people can be TERFs, men can be TERFs. There’s even one transwoman who’s a TERF! Work that one out – I can’t! As I say, I think lesbians are awesome.
Andie Pas de Deux says
PS I’m not sure pansexuality could be defined as exclusive when it exists to define someone who is attracted to everyone, regardless of gender.
Rud says
Cis lesbian is by definition, lesbophobic. It supposes we can also be attracted to biological males (transwomen). We are not. Bio males arent part of our sexual and emotional attractions by definition, as lesbians. This is where your discrimination of lesbians is. Not to mention you change our sexual orientation we dont affiliate with. You need to create an orientation for same gender/identity attracted people, so we can leave this lesbophobic discussion for what it is.
Andie Pas de Deux says
Rud, I appreciate that YOU aren’t but some cis lesbians ARE! I’m very sorry if that doesn’t appeal to you, but I’ve met quite a few of them and they’re very real people. Just because this is a fact does not make ME lesbophobic! I’m leaving the bigotry to the TERFs.
Rud says
When you call people not attracted to transwomen, TERF, that is a form of sexual violence as you with calling us that, are telling us we should sexually include you against our will. Its why people call your speech rapey. You will have to accept most people arent into you as goes for most people on this planet. You need to drop your entitlement to lesbians. We have our own sexuality transwomen arent part of. Deal with it.
Andie Pas de Deux says
Right, this is gonna be my last comment to you, because you’re twisting my words. I only refer to people who are trans exclusionary as TERFs. Whether they’re gay, lesbian, bi, black, white, male, female or anything else is completely irrelevant.
Rapey? Rapists should be locked up and the key thrown away. Don’t compare me to a fucking rapist!
Yeah, I accept that most people aren’t into me sexually. But you could say that about anyone.
Some lesbians fancy transwomen. Sorry, but that’s a fact. And maybe you’re the one who’s spouting hate speech for apparently denying their right to exist. LIVE AND LET LIVE.
Rud says
No lesbian is attracted to biological males/transwomen. What is happening is this:
1) people calling themselves lesbians as part of gender identity politicss that label themselves as something theyre’not. Bisexual women calling themselves lesbian b/c its trendy for example
2) the overwheling pressure on lesbians to sexually include transwomen while we arent attracted to them and when we dont, we are called TERF and transphobic
3) from which follows that lesbians feel they have to sleep with transwomen and do so against their will
Your speech harms lesbians and is a form of rape culture.
Rud says
The problem is this: transwomen use lesbians to affirm their gender identity, at any cost to lesbians. Many transwomen arent attracted to other transwomen either, only to bio females. It is glaringly obvious whats going on here: you use lesbians to affirm yourself, which is abusive. Many transwomen abuse lesbians this way. We are treated as objects to confirm you really are women. If we dont, we are TERFs. It cant get anymore lesbophobic and abusive. Lesbians see through this common transwomen narrative and tactic, and you cannot stand it. We’ve dealt with a lot of lesbophobia before transwomen came along, and transwomen do the same as any other lesbo and homophobe. No difference. The result for transwomen is that people top supporting you. And that is all thanks to yourselves. Ive said my piece. Bye.
Rosie says
Ok I am a middle aged lesbian who has been out for 25 years and I don’t have the slightest interest in being ‘trendy’. I don’t fancy men, I fancy many, many women and *shock horror* some of those women have been trans women. Nobody gets to police my sexuality based on the types of women I may find attractive. Andie’s been quite clear that she doesn’t agree with the idea of suggesting lesbians MUST consider relations with trans women but to say that NONE can is just inaccurate and oddly imperious. X
Andie Pas de Deux says
Rosie, I love you! xxx
Rud says
There is a difference between finding someone attractive and finding someone sexually attractive and wanting to sleep with them. Lesbians dont want to have sex with bio males/transwomen because we are not sexually interested in them that way. This is female homosexuality. If you are interested in having sex with male people, youre not a lesbian. It really is very simple like this.
Andie Pas de Deux says
The fact that you keep referring to transwomen as males outs you as a transphobic TERF. You keep claiming (falsely) that I’m being bigoted and yet you have no evidence and you show your transphobic hate again and again and again.
If you don’t want to have sex with transwomen, that’s fine, I have no problem with that. But there are plenty of lesbians, such as Rosie, who do.
It all comes down to whether you accept transwomen as women – or whether you’re a vile TERF bigot.
Rud says
One of many transwomen that accept they’re not of the female sex: Transgender Women Aren’t “Women”https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZOZY6A62XY
This is a transwoman that accepts what a woman is and what homosexuality is. It’s these transwomen I admire. Transwomen like you I do not. for obvious reasons.
Rud says
Only autogynephilic males demand lesbians are in some way open to you as sexual partners. Lesbians know this. You are heterosexual males. We also know that. Youre free to be delusional. But others see you for what you are: a predatory male that doesn’t accept ‘no’. Work on that.
Rosie says
Haha, hanging out on the internet telling lesbians they’re not lesbians sounds like a really righteous cause so good luck with that! Could have just admitted you blatant ly didn’t read Andie’s blog properly in the first place but noooo
Andie Pas de Deux says
Got to pity TERFs, Rosie. Autogynephilia doesn’t even exist – it’s been discredited by everyone but the TERFs. It seems that they’ve made it their life’s work to tell transwomen they’re not women – and now they’re doing the same with lesbians. Pathetic.
Outi says
Hi, I’m lesbian, queer, and cis, just to clarify what lived experience and positioning I speak from! I’d just like to comment a bit on the term cotton ceiling, as it’s used in a variety of ways and contexts, as well as being increasingly twisted around into an ugly and tendentious caricature. I think it’s quite valid to point out the inherent problematics of the blanket statement “I could never desire/sleep with a trans woman/trans man”. Questioning the potential transphobia embedded in such a belief is not the same as demanding desire (or sex with) any particular person, and this differentiation is vital. Desire itself is of course a powerful transformative force, and the more trans folk we have in our queer circles, the faster will lesbian desire for trans women be normalised, as well as gay desire for trans men, etc. Thus we arrive at the secondary mechanism of the cotton ceiling, which has already raised its ugly head in this comment thread here: the urge to police and erase the identities and lived experience of the cis partners/lovers of trans lesbians.
Outi says
Also just wanted to say, Andie, I’m really sorry about the kind of bullying shite you’re being subjected to on your own site, which should be, like you say, a transphobia-free zone. Hang in there, you’re not alone!
Andie Pas de Deux says
Thanks Outi, but I’ve been subjected to far, far worse from A-list TERFs, so I’m not too fussed about our Dutch friend, misguided and bigoted though she may be. xxx
Outi says
I wish I could say I can imagine, but honestly, I can’t even. The cesspool of the internet astounds me daily. xxx
Andie Pas de Deux says
Haters gonna hate. One day, Twitter and the like will close down their hate-filled accounts instead of just suspending them for 12 or 24 hours (after they’ve been reported). But until that happens, there’s not a lot we can do except ignore them.
Rosie says
Well said.x
Andie Pas de Deux says
Just saw this on Twitter. Seems pretty accurate, I’d say.